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Strongest of Talithar – 15

Strongest of Talithar – 15 published on 25 Comments on Strongest of Talithar – 15

Hope people read this part – especially for this page, though it is very long. So! Everyone who reads this should know already, this is page 15 of a chapter that is normally 26 pages. This is that moment where you are reading a book called David The Main Character, and David dies – and you realize you are only half way through the book. David’s probably not dead, or – probably not staying dead. We finally get to answer a bunch of questions, and we get to advance characters significantly- you’ll see what I mean soon, BUT! Something I do need to mention here and now is, thanks to the comments and different views I have modified a few things, and I want people to know a bit about it and why. I’ve mentioned this several times, but writing a story that everyone agrees with elements, is basically impossible. People will read things differently, even people who read it the exact say way, can have different conclusions. So, since I am mostly writing this by myself, occasionally getting input from friends and readers, I can suddenly learn a way people see things conflicts with mine. Often- it’s not really all that important, but I find it fun and interesting. So let me give my original concept, and how It’s changing- and how – it really doesn’t matter, at least not to the story as a whole.

So! This guy has been described as a Tank. This means different things in different games. This VR game is an RPG, and it’s an MMORPG, but its not specifically copying known MMOs. It’s using my thoughts on the direction I would want for the future in VR gaming. To date, my best experiences in games is D&D, both games and tabletop. I’ve played MMOs, I’ve played action adventurer games, turn based games, platformers, side scrollers, fighting games- none of them seem to come close to (my baby) D&D. I’m aware of the extreme tank and the MMO standard Tank where they give up almost everything for Defense. They can’t or barely can do damage, and are just a damage sponge for the healer to heal so no one else has to take damage. A tank to me, was described early on in the comic. Kaylin said “A giant dropped a house on him, and he walked out without a scratch an broke the giants leg in a single strike.” To me, a tank is very hard to hurt, you need to keep pressure on them, discover a weakness and exploit it. They can also deal out some massive damage. Not a lot of ways, just some really heavy hitting skills, possibly with longer cool downs, and their basic attacks would be strong, but not as hard hitting as a DPS focused attack. I see the gameplay working differently for types of tank builds. You could make an evasive tank, focusing on light armor, using magical defensive and agility increasing things to use with dodge, evasion, and “rolling with the punches” type skills where your agility is used as a Damage Reduction- and its all about timing for you. Perfectly moving- while keeping track of everything, this splits your stats a bit because, if you don’t see an attack coming, your defense here doesn’t matter. So Evasive tanks cant just do Dex build and Strength for boosting damage, they need things that improve their perception and senses and still needs constitution because you cant always just BE PERFECT, so you need to be able to take some hits. High AC tanks using heavy armors have lots of crazy options that are neat, weird, and usually have weaknesses, bigger weaknesses for bigger bonuses too. So their build allows them to be less focused on active defending and can focus on watching out for their weaknesses being targets to counter them, but their shielding, and parry skills would be very strong and open up opportunities in enemies own defenses.

That- was a long way of saying, he’s an armor tank, but he’s still got a cannon! The original plan was that his build along with some parts of his strategy, are countering both accidentally, and intentionally, Kaylin’s build. Kaylin’s combat tactics against most things are basically a Bleed build. She deals a small amount of damage (thought it doesn’t look that way since she’s mostly fighting things way weaker than herself) and cause debuffs, like bleed and poison. These do damage over time – DOT, and stack up to deadly levels rapidly. She uses that to weaken, and then uses assassination techniques to finish enemies off (mostly due to instant kill abilities not working over a set amount of HP or a percentage of HP depending on the skill). She’s not built to only work in one build though, she’s not a hyper focused build, so she can change up strategies with equipment swaps and using different skills. Not being able to deal those status effects though is a major issue. She would have to change things up. More on that later- in the comic so no typing here about that now, So what is changing? Well most of it still stands. I agree though with some that it’s probably not enough to call it there, and I had some other ideas when writing this. The implied training from a benefactor, being from an infamous Playerkiller group, and having access to things that shouldn’t exist, open up one of the old concepts I wanted to use but didn’t have a great place for- his armor is a surprise to Kaylin, because no one uses it anymore- or when she was playing. That particular armor, was nerfed. People found a way to take advantage of it’s strengths, without worrying about it’s negatives. He has a set of armor from before it was nerfed somehow. This opens up some new avenues, but it doesn’t change the overall outcome. If you read all this, I hope it was insightful and entertaining! See ya again soon!

PS! “Potion- won’t-” is referring to her trying to use her arm band to pull out a potion to heal with, but it won’t work- because her HP has already dropped to 0 without her even being able to register it.

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Auryn
Auryn
2 years ago

I’d like to think we’re more prepared for this than we were for the surprise combat with Aiya in the bathhouse, but actually seeing Kaylin take a major hit and succumb in a single comic will probably still come as a shock. Last page she was still mid-fight banter, although she was having trouble (which we can appreciate due to how much she was verbalizing it, a significant improvement I think!) she did not yet seem fully in ‘crisis’. If anything this page’s sudden blood gushing is so abrupt it almost needs a trigger warning spoiler (particularly the side wound, which almost looks like forced bleeding due to how strongly it’s erupting).

It’s also amazing how much disconnect can happen over the evolving (and conflicting) definitions of what a “Tank” is, what they can and can’t do across multiple different mediums. I think that Kaylin’s original description to Nyna about a Tank vs a Giant did not trigger the same disconnect reactions because the story focused more on the Tank’s defense (survived a house falling on them) than it did how much damage it would actually take to break a giant’s leg – by that point we were well used to the idea of adventurers doing crazy amounts of damage, so it was less “a tank is super powerful” as “a tank survived that crazy sounding hit and then hit it back with an adventurer-level attack”.

With that said, we DO stand to see a lot of character progression here. How Adventurers handle death after the Incident has been an open question for a while now. We saw the nearby Resurrection Shrine a few pages back so it is implied that is where she will eventually reappear… but in the meantime quite a lot will be able to happen. She could have encounters with gods (several candidates there), she could get to reference Tom’s life/mind somehow while Kaylin is ‘dead’, she could even learn more about the Incident itself and what’s going on with the world at large. It’s also an opportunity for Nyna to rely on herself again instead of being as much the audience with the Invincible Kaylin as her ever-present backup, and the answers Kaylin finds may be VERY relevant for Callum and Mike whenever she encounters them next.

coredumperror
coredumperror
2 years ago

Your description of an evasive tank reminds me of an oooooold strategy you could use in World of Warcraft, back in the late Burning Crusade days (~2008). Certain tanks had access to the right gear to stack Dexterity up SUPER high, and get a dodge chance in excess of 80%. So since the boss would entirely miss all but one in five attacks, as long as the healers were continuously preparing to land a heal on you, and you could survive two hits, you were essentially unkillable, despite having barely any HP compared to a traditional Tank due to sacrificing so much Stamina for all that Dexterity.

This was amazing for Druid tanks, because the amount of dex needed to reach those dodge levels also shot your crit chance through the roof, giving you excellent DPS in both Bear (tank) and Cat (rogue) forms.

This same strategy could actually be used by Rogues, too, who happened to have access to *even more* Dexterity on their best-in-slot gear than Druids. This allowed the absolute best-geared Rogues in the game to actually hit 100% dodge chance. And after a Rogue successfully tanked the main story boss of Burning Crusade (a boss capable of easily one-shotting any rogue… IF he could hit them), Blizzard realized that they’d fucked up, and nerfed dodge chance to have diminishing returns, permanently ending the days of the evasive tank. 🙁

Goldenzeal
Goldenzeal
2 years ago
Reply to  coredumperror

Yeah this was something you could do in Wildstar as the Rouge Classes while that gem of a game was still around. Rouges could tank spec with the right gear and abilities because they had ways to life steal and reduce damage by alot.

snek
snek
2 years ago
Reply to  Goldenzeal

Life steal? That reminds me of *warlock* tanks from WoW (Cataclysm, maybe?).

Lee M
2 years ago

A question that occurs to me is whether PCs feel actual pain from taking hits. Judging by Kaylin’s face, it certainly looks like it. Oh, dear.

Eboreg
2 years ago
Reply to  Lee M

Honestly, given the state she’s in, the pain might as well be real.

durandle
durandle
2 years ago

“He has a set of armor from before it was nerfed somehow.”
another potential way would be that a variant has been made without the weakness
similar to how the world is “learning” new items and even new technology

Khaisz
Khaisz
2 years ago

“Armor Tank with a Cannon, so basically a Blood Death Knight from WoW.”

Back when I still played wow, A good Blood DK was unkillable, they ate hits for days and hit like a truck and could heal.

A paladin on steroids.

Khaisz
Khaisz
2 years ago
Reply to  Khaisz

That end ” should been after Cannon, dunno how it landed somewhere else.

DarkoNeko
2 years ago

well now she’s about to see whether adventurers can resurrect.

CelestialDoggie
CelestialDoggie
2 years ago

> This is that moment where you are reading a book called David The Main Character, and David dies – and you realize you are only half way through the book. David’s probably not dead, or – probably not staying dead.

Orrrrr…we could be traumatized by having read lots of Raymond “What Is Plot Armor” Feist, and fully expect Kaylin to actually be dead forever now 😛

(To be clear, I don’t expect Kaylin to be dead forever. But I had to bring Feist up.)

Honestly, the thing I find least believable about this situation in this world half-governed by MMO rules, and half by normal physics, is that someone with Kaylin’s physical aptitude and enhanced reaction time would be able to be insta-killed by a single blow from a slow, stolid dude in heavy armor…even if it IS a skill. Especially since *every single one* of Kaylin’s skills she’s used so far *hasn’t* gotten past him.

But I think that goes back to Sage’s comment about definitions of Tanks, and how he won’t be able to make a comic where everyone agrees with all its elements 😛

So I’ll leave it here as a comment of “I see your intent even if I don’t really think the execution, pardon the pun, is correct,” and anxiously wait several weeks for the conclusion.

Llywenna
Llywenna
2 years ago

Now we see if Nyna is a were-dire-monster and has been unconsciously suppressing her true power.
That and they do know a couple of deities….so a resurrection isn’t out of the question.
Assuming the author doesn’t want to end the story here, there will be an out 🙂
Maybe she has a few saves built up ?

Sims
Sims
2 years ago

“Found a piece of armor from before the nerf”… since every piece of the same type draws its stats from the same file, that should be impossible unless the nerf itself was undone OR it´s an entirely different set.
About the Tank doing a lot of damage, that IS possible but usually comes at the expense of other things, like speed, damage and agility, however if you can carry something like Plate Armor you can drop shgields and go for mor edamaging two-handed weapons like pole arms, long- and even great swords and such.
Basically there needs to be balance, or having created other classes would be a waste of time because everyone plays that one overpowered class unless they specifically want some roleplay.
However my ramblings about game logic aside, now we find out some important new info: can Adventurers die?

masterofinfinity479
2 years ago

is this the first time you put the f word in one of your comics? also the color distortion in the last panel is a really nice detail

Sims
Sims
2 years ago
Reply to  Sage

My favorite final words were from Oscar Wilde saying “Either this ceiling goes or i.”
That must have been a REALLY ugly ceiling…

jrh150482
jrh150482
2 years ago

Kaylin is now dead, yup…

Paradox
2 years ago

I never liked the idea that a tank can’t do damage

Real life tanks, the big armored vehicles used in wars, are closer to what TvTropes calls a “lightning bruiser”, as they possess defense, offense, AND speed

Honestly have no idea how “tank” came to be associated solely with defense in gaming vernacular

Nealend
Nealend
2 years ago

Unless she’s using a feign death skill it might be time to see if corpse runs are a thing here.

snowie
snowie
2 years ago

please read this …

but when you been playing games like this since 1990, you get the Dis of it straight up
like the Very few that would.
and i guess your got interesting stuff coming up :hype

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